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	<title>Comments on: On Abortion</title>
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	<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24</link>
	<description>The BrianFrantz.com Weblog</description>
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		<title>By: bfrantz</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>bfrantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 12:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment, Rachel.  I wasn&#039;t aware of that.  I wouldn&#039;t say it fundamentally changes the argument too much, but I appreciate the fact-check!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment, Rachel.  I wasn&#8217;t aware of that.  I wouldn&#8217;t say it fundamentally changes the argument too much, but I appreciate the fact-check!</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 04:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24#comment-39</guid>
		<description>This varies state-to-state, but if someone murders a pregnant woman, it is considered a double murder only if the fetus is over 24 weeks (NY).  This is, of course, regardless of whether or not the mother is planning on keeping it.  

I disagree with you on the issue, but I can see where you&#039;re coming from and you argue it well (minus the over-generalized double-murder part).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This varies state-to-state, but if someone murders a pregnant woman, it is considered a double murder only if the fetus is over 24 weeks (NY).  This is, of course, regardless of whether or not the mother is planning on keeping it.  </p>
<p>I disagree with you on the issue, but I can see where you&#8217;re coming from and you argue it well (minus the over-generalized double-murder part).</p>
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		<title>By: bfrantz</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>bfrantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Very true, and that&#039;s probably a good reason why a fine actually isn&#039;t a viable punishment.  

Aside from that, though, there are different punishments for murder depending on age, motive, etc.  An adult committing premeditated murder and a minor murdering someone without really thinking about it are handled very differently under the law.  Thus, just because a life sentence or death penalty applies to some murders, doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s an appropriate punishment for abortion due to the extenuating circumstances (fear, confusion, desperation, etc. on the part of the mother, as opposed to it being something cold-blooded and well-thought out).

Additionally, it&#039;s kind of unreasonable to incarcerate a woman for a long time for doing something that just days/months earlier was completely legal.  So perhaps there should be a sort of grace period out of fairness to those who may not understand the consequences of what they&#039;re doing.  That leniency wouldn&#039;t be due to abortion not being murder, but a tragic consequence of the mistake of legalizing abortion in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true, and that&#8217;s probably a good reason why a fine actually isn&#8217;t a viable punishment.  </p>
<p>Aside from that, though, there are different punishments for murder depending on age, motive, etc.  An adult committing premeditated murder and a minor murdering someone without really thinking about it are handled very differently under the law.  Thus, just because a life sentence or death penalty applies to some murders, doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s an appropriate punishment for abortion due to the extenuating circumstances (fear, confusion, desperation, etc. on the part of the mother, as opposed to it being something cold-blooded and well-thought out).</p>
<p>Additionally, it&#8217;s kind of unreasonable to incarcerate a woman for a long time for doing something that just days/months earlier was completely legal.  So perhaps there should be a sort of grace period out of fairness to those who may not understand the consequences of what they&#8217;re doing.  That leniency wouldn&#8217;t be due to abortion not being murder, but a tragic consequence of the mistake of legalizing abortion in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 00:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have a question about your response. If you state the idea that abortion is murder, but then do not say the punishment should be the same as murder. If the crime is just as equal, then why then, is not your idea of the punishment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question about your response. If you state the idea that abortion is murder, but then do not say the punishment should be the same as murder. If the crime is just as equal, then why then, is not your idea of the punishment?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 06:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I enjoyed that, it was a good read.

I think it&#039;s interesting that a new tactic pro-lifers are using is giving the mother an ultra-sound before she decides to abort, and it&#039;s causing them to reconsider.  It seems like people are starting to mellow out and listen to the facts about this issue recently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed that, it was a good read.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s interesting that a new tactic pro-lifers are using is giving the mother an ultra-sound before she decides to abort, and it&#8217;s causing them to reconsider.  It seems like people are starting to mellow out and listen to the facts about this issue recently.</p>
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		<title>By: bfrantz</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>bfrantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 06:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24#comment-22</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tess!

Yeah, that is somewhat of a &quot;gray area,&quot; hence the fact that some pro-choice people will support the banning of partial birth abortion, but not earlier forms of abortion.

But like you say, the science is there.  At conception, the fetus has unique human DNA, distinct from both parents.  That alone proves that the child is not just a part of the mother that can be removed like an appendix, but is a unique human being.  Thus, to kill it is murder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tess!</p>
<p>Yeah, that is somewhat of a &#8220;gray area,&#8221; hence the fact that some pro-choice people will support the banning of partial birth abortion, but not earlier forms of abortion.</p>
<p>But like you say, the science is there.  At conception, the fetus has unique human DNA, distinct from both parents.  That alone proves that the child is not just a part of the mother that can be removed like an appendix, but is a unique human being.  Thus, to kill it is murder.</p>
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		<title>By: Tess</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Tess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice essay Brian- clear and concise....
Used to get into so many really crazy debates in high school that I almost hate bringing up the topic these days. I had a class that focused ENTIRELY on current events and controversial issues. Most common classes focused on abortion and gay marriage.... it was... chaotic to say the least.

I really like the point you made about a murderer being held responsible for TWO murders in the case of pregnant women. A very poignant consideration. Makes me wonder what would happen if a woman was murdered on her way to an abortion clinic...

In my experience- ALL controversy really stems from when exactly life begins- an issue no one seems to have strong arguments with any debatable quality (either &quot;at conception&quot; or &quot;at birth.&quot;) In my opinion any in between opinion doesn&#039;t seem easily arguable, and I don&#039;t see any new facts coming out that are swaying anyone&#039;s opinion. In my view, I have no doubt life &quot;begins&quot; in our world at conception- if God knows how many hairs are on our heads I&#039;m quite confident just being inside our mom&#039;s womb and not fully developed doesn&#039;t keep Him from knowing and loving us as His children. Im curious though- have you heard any information on that matter with strong debatable potential? The science is there- when heartbeats start, fingerprints, etc... but in my experience it seems generally known and not effective in swaying opinions. I&#039;ve just never heard a really strong argument made thats based on when life begins- its always just &quot;everyone&#039;s opinion.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice essay Brian- clear and concise&#8230;.<br />
Used to get into so many really crazy debates in high school that I almost hate bringing up the topic these days. I had a class that focused ENTIRELY on current events and controversial issues. Most common classes focused on abortion and gay marriage&#8230;. it was&#8230; chaotic to say the least.</p>
<p>I really like the point you made about a murderer being held responsible for TWO murders in the case of pregnant women. A very poignant consideration. Makes me wonder what would happen if a woman was murdered on her way to an abortion clinic&#8230;</p>
<p>In my experience- ALL controversy really stems from when exactly life begins- an issue no one seems to have strong arguments with any debatable quality (either &#8220;at conception&#8221; or &#8220;at birth.&#8221;) In my opinion any in between opinion doesn&#8217;t seem easily arguable, and I don&#8217;t see any new facts coming out that are swaying anyone&#8217;s opinion. In my view, I have no doubt life &#8220;begins&#8221; in our world at conception- if God knows how many hairs are on our heads I&#8217;m quite confident just being inside our mom&#8217;s womb and not fully developed doesn&#8217;t keep Him from knowing and loving us as His children. Im curious though- have you heard any information on that matter with strong debatable potential? The science is there- when heartbeats start, fingerprints, etc&#8230; but in my experience it seems generally known and not effective in swaying opinions. I&#8217;ve just never heard a really strong argument made thats based on when life begins- its always just &#8220;everyone&#8217;s opinion.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: bfrantz</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>bfrantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 02:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24#comment-20</guid>
		<description>I was under the impression that &quot;pro-choice&quot; people didn&#039;t view it as a crime at all...victimless or no.  Again, it comes down to whether the fetus is a human being.  If so, the victim is clearly the unborn child who will never have a shot at life.  If not, then the argument is moot since it&#039;s nothing more than an amputation of unwanted tissue.

As for that question, it&#039;s a tough one and while it&#039;s not relevant to whether abortion should be legal or not, it is something that would have to be determined, probably at a state level by voters.  I think a penalty in this case should be whatever is necessary to prevent it from happening in most cases, so a hefty fine and/or limited jail time would probably be enough to convince most women to have the kid and put him/her up for adoption.  And I&#039;d suggest a similar penalty for the provider of the abortion, but in proportion to how many abortions they are convicted of performing (which could add up to a life sentence if they had done a lot).

And thanks for reading!  I respect your opinion, even though I disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was under the impression that &#8220;pro-choice&#8221; people didn&#8217;t view it as a crime at all&#8230;victimless or no.  Again, it comes down to whether the fetus is a human being.  If so, the victim is clearly the unborn child who will never have a shot at life.  If not, then the argument is moot since it&#8217;s nothing more than an amputation of unwanted tissue.</p>
<p>As for that question, it&#8217;s a tough one and while it&#8217;s not relevant to whether abortion should be legal or not, it is something that would have to be determined, probably at a state level by voters.  I think a penalty in this case should be whatever is necessary to prevent it from happening in most cases, so a hefty fine and/or limited jail time would probably be enough to convince most women to have the kid and put him/her up for adoption.  And I&#8217;d suggest a similar penalty for the provider of the abortion, but in proportion to how many abortions they are convicted of performing (which could add up to a life sentence if they had done a lot).</p>
<p>And thanks for reading!  I respect your opinion, even though I disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24&#038;cpage=1#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 01:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piqued.brianfrantz.com/?p=24#comment-19</guid>
		<description>I know our views differ a lot, both coming from two completely different view points and neither of us are likely to change the other. I do hope you understand the underlying difference however between the stance of &quot;pro-life&quot; and &quot;pro-choice&quot;. Its the idea of abortion being a victimless &quot;crime&quot; or not. Of course, not all debate stems from this point, as I am making a generalization.

Also, I did have a question. As it has been brought up through various outlets and I really haven&#039;t been able to talk reasonably with someone lately who has had opposing views. What punishment should those who get abortions receive if abortion was to become illegal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know our views differ a lot, both coming from two completely different view points and neither of us are likely to change the other. I do hope you understand the underlying difference however between the stance of &#8220;pro-life&#8221; and &#8220;pro-choice&#8221;. Its the idea of abortion being a victimless &#8220;crime&#8221; or not. Of course, not all debate stems from this point, as I am making a generalization.</p>
<p>Also, I did have a question. As it has been brought up through various outlets and I really haven&#8217;t been able to talk reasonably with someone lately who has had opposing views. What punishment should those who get abortions receive if abortion was to become illegal?</p>
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